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Post by dave1800 on Apr 20, 2018 9:13:06 GMT
Tommy don't tell him that I'm trying to convince him it's easy  . Actually once you've done it once it all becomes clear even though it may sound daunting. Have a look at the Moss videos again and there's a further quick trick to check many of the standard BMC cams to complement the Moss suggestions, all will be divulged soon or Google 110 degrees. David |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 20, 2018 12:05:27 GMT
Ha! I did follow Tommy's trials and tribulations in great detail. I was thinking "Thank goodness I'm not doing that!"  Anyway, Mark has no recollection of what cam was actually fitted, so I've just got to find a 12H 2436. That's the one which does: In - 5/45; Ex - 40/10; Lift - 0.25"; Dur - 230. It isn't out there as far as I can tell...... Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 20, 2018 12:37:21 GMT
Why not just set the tappet clearances to 0.020" get a protractor/degree wheel, feeler gauges and note the inlet and exhaust opening and closing degrees. Tommy is our expert! I would advise using / making a piston stop to ensure you are 100% certain of the accuracy of TDC mark before you do this.
If you have a mechanical fuel pump drive I think it is likely to be the standard Mk11/111 12H2436 or the cam used in the 1800S 16,56,51,21. If no mechanical fuel pump drive it could be from a MGB, again 16,56,51,21 (but slightly different from the "S" -don't worry) or from MK1 cars that used 0,50,35,15 - similar to 12H2436 but shifted 5 degrees)and 5,45,51,21 - which seemed to be preferred by Downton.
Anything wilder should be reconisable once you have the measurements. I guess finding a 12H2436 may be difficult, I suggest worth a call to Tony W.
David
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 22, 2018 3:41:37 GMT
OK, I know cam timing is an even bigger turn off than ignition timing, but some of you may find this mildly interesting and the rest will already know it If you want to quickly confirm your valve timing is correct all you need to do is remove the rocker cover and preferably also the spark plugs, turn the engine over until the No 1 cylinder inlet valve pushrod (ie the second from the front)is at its highest point ie valve fully open. Then measure the number of degrees ATDC of the pulley timing mark. If it is 110 degrees then all is fine - assuming the TDC mark on the pulley is correct. This is not as precise as the Moss method here as the camshaft lobe centre can be a little tricky to establish precisely but if a timing chain is off by 1 camshaft gear tooth that = 9 degrees and is immediately obvious. This is quick and only needs one measurement. This works for most of the BMC symmetrical cams. 5,45,40,10 Mk11/111 and later Mk1 cars. Inlet starts to open 5 degrees BTDC, closed again at 45 degrees ATDC. Total time = 5+45+180 = 230 degrees. Mid point = lobe centre = 230/2 = 115 which is reached at 115-5 degrees = 110 ATDC 16,56,51,21 Mk11S Total time = 16+56+180 = 252 degrees. Mid point = 252/2 = 126 which is reached at 126-16 degrees = 110 ATDC etc. Also worth checking that all the valves open to the same extent to confirm no excessive camshaft lobe wear. David ms to complement the Moss suggestions, all will be divulged soon or Google 110 degrees. David |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 22, 2018 15:29:47 GMT
I am taking all this information on board, honest. I have been clearing the garage a bit and doing some fettling as the car is in for its MoT Test tomorrow, so any serious investigations are going to have to wait for the moment. I did discover a spare engine under the work bench, so took the opportunity to tease the camshaft out of it.  VOF707J by Penguin 45, on Flickr Cor.  VOF707J by Penguin 45, on Flickr Even better - 12H 2436. I think.  VOF707J by Penguin 45, on Flickr No good. Even I can tell that the tip is flattened on lobe no. 6. What a shame. Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 23, 2018 1:07:18 GMT
Why do I keep thinking of Pinocchio - I must be getting confused with the cam lobes. Actually the test I suggested would show this type of issue without any dismantling other than taking off the rocker cover now in't that worthwhile? David I am taking all this information on board, honest. Chris. |
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Post by foglaursen on Jun 6, 2018 8:56:10 GMT
The acceleration of my Wolseley MKI has never been good, although MPG is good. So I decided to try your method. It didn't show 110 degrees but about 125 degrees, so it seems I have found the reason. Peter OK, I know cam timing is an even bigger turn off than ignition timing, but some of you may find this mildly interesting and the rest will already know it If you want to quickly confirm your valve timing is correct all you need to do is remove the rocker cover and preferably also the spark plugs, turn the engine over until the No 1 cylinder inlet valve pushrod (ie the second from the front)is at its highest point ie valve fully open. Then measure the number of degrees ATDC of the pulley timing mark. If it is 110 degrees then all is fine - assuming the TDC mark on the pulley is correct. This is not as precise as the Moss method here as the camshaft lobe centre can be a little tricky to establish precisely but if a timing chain is off by 1 camshaft gear tooth that = 9 degrees and is immediately obvious. This is quick and only needs one measurement. This works for most of the BMC symmetrical cams. 5,45,40,10 Mk11/111 and later Mk1 cars. Inlet starts to open 5 degrees BTDC, closed again at 45 degrees ATDC. Total time = 5+45+180 = 230 degrees. Mid point = lobe centre = 230/2 = 115 which is reached at 115-5 degrees = 110 ATDC 16,56,51,21 Mk11S Total time = 16+56+180 = 252 degrees. Mid point = 252/2 = 126 which is reached at 126-16 degrees = 110 ATDC etc. Also worth checking that all the valves open to the same extent to confirm no excessive camshaft lobe wear. David ms to complement the Moss suggestions, all will be divulged soon or Google 110 degrees. David |
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Post by dave1800 on Jun 6, 2018 23:33:55 GMT
That is interesting. These engines in standard single carb setup normally run reasonably well even when the tuning or timing is out. Before dismantling I would suggest double checking the accuracy of the pulley tdc mark to make sure the outer part has not moved in relation to the inner and also the Moss method if you used the quick check. It may also be of interest to check the cam profile at the sme time. David The acceleration of my Wolseley MKI has never been good, although MPG is good. So I decided to try your method. It didn't show 110 degrees but about 125 degrees, so it seems I have found the reason. Peter OK, I know cam timing is an even bigger turn off than ignition timing, but some of you may find this mildly interesting and the rest will already know it If you want to quickly confirm your valve timing is correct all you need to do is remove the rocker cover and preferably also the spark plugs, turn the engine over until the No 1 cylinder inlet valve pushrod (ie the second from the front)is at its highest point ie valve fully open. Then measure the number of degrees ATDC of the pulley timing mark. If it is 110 degrees then all is fine - assuming the TDC mark on the pulley is correct. This is not as precise as the Moss method here as the camshaft lobe centre can be a little tricky to establish precisely but if a timing chain is off by 1 camshaft gear tooth that = 9 degrees and is immediately obvious. This is quick and only needs one measurement. This works for most of the BMC symmetrical cams. 5,45,40,10 Mk11/111 and later Mk1 cars. Inlet starts to open 5 degrees BTDC, closed again at 45 degrees ATDC. Total time = 5+45+180 = 230 degrees. Mid point = lobe centre = 230/2 = 115 which is reached at 115-5 degrees = 110 ATDC 16,56,51,21 Mk11S Total time = 16+56+180 = 252 degrees. Mid point = 252/2 = 126 which is reached at 126-16 degrees = 110 ATDC etc. Also worth checking that all the valves open to the same extent to confirm no excessive camshaft lobe wear. David |
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Post by Penguin45 on Jun 24, 2018 19:26:34 GMT
Further to Snoopy's gleeful post OH DEAR, an explanation is necessary. Saturday is barn day. A few grumpy old gits gather in a barn in Preston and play cars for the day. To that end, I take my work stuff out of the car and load up a few tools for doing body work. We're currently working on a Humber Hawk. Also, I loaded up a load of transmission stuff, as Sunday I was planning to go and raid Snoopy's shiny new garage and have a look at the offside transmission. There had been some strange noises for a few days and the o/s hub nut keeps slipping, but my garage is blocked by a project. So, set off and got as far as Gisburn and some most peculiar noises started. Slowed down and got as far as Balderstone, before I lost drive pulling way from a roundabout. Managed to limp off the A59 and waited for the RAC. Snoopy turned out in the P6 with a flask of tea and eventually we got to the barn. Stripped the front o/s transmission and finished up fitting a hairy rubber spider, new CV joint and a bearing set. These were all in the boot ready for Sunday. We also found that the driving flange had stripped all of its splines. That wasn't in the boot, but my friend Nishka had one. Not quite sure why he had one, but it got cleaned up and fitted. Went for a test drive and then did the whole job again as the shaft popped back out of the CV joint...... In the meantime, Ady was turning down some nuts to my spec - they were ready Saturday evenening, ready for Sunday.  Hub Nuts by Penguin 45, on Flickr They're 1" x 12tpi UNF. Ady has turned them down to 17mm depth and turned a ring onto the end, thus ensuring that the nut bears fully on the taper cone and not on the driving flange.  Hub nuts by Penguin 45, on Flickr And fitted. Happy with that. Big thanks to Snoopy and Nishka for a vast and fast amount of work. WHich left Sunday's visit to Snoopy's garage rather redundant. Chris. |
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Post by 1800heap on Jun 25, 2018 9:51:42 GMT
Hi Chris
Quick question about this spline issue you had. Do you happen to have a brake disk rotor on this hub that has been skimmed?
Nick
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Post by Penguin45 on Jun 25, 2018 18:58:57 GMT
Don't think so. The Wolseley has got skimmed discs and they've been no bother. Is there a fascinating snippet of info to be shared? Chris. |
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Post by 1800heap on Jun 25, 2018 23:07:50 GMT
Well not really Chris. I had a similar problem with a W/six that resulted in it being taken off the road and eventually scrapped for parts. I never really got to the bottom of it! The first time I had trouble it stripped the spline in the hub. The CV spline was ok. I replaced the hub and cv and tightened as normal. Well I thought I did anyway! A while later checked and found the hub nut loose. Retightened kept checking to find the hub nut became loose again after only a short time. The split pin proved it didn't undo! It had worn! Not wanting this to happend again and not finding anything else wrong, I tightened it very very tight with a long lever.
Dad borrowed the car one day and broke down with a stripped hub spline! Why! I had replaced the hub, CV, washer and nut due to damage the first time. Now after dad broke down as I say the car went off the road as I had no parts to fix it. This is where it stayed unti it was scrapped for parts to repair my 1800. It didn't occur to me at the time but the only common part was the disk. It was skimmed and I think it must have been done badly. What else could it be?
Nick
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Post by dave1800 on Jun 26, 2018 13:44:14 GMT
My experience has been that if there is ANY play in the splines that it WILL lead to failure. The key to avoiding the issue I found was to be meticulous about getting the end float correct in the front wheel bearings /spacer(there is extensive guidance in the technical section) so that it prevents twisting. The correct torque for the hub nut is also essential. I have had experience of rapid wear when I failed to resolve a hub issue quickly.
Skimmimg the disk shouldn't in theory cause a problem as long as the hub is reassembled with the splines in exactly the same position but this was a common issue that BMC/BL failed to acknowledge.
David
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Post by 1800heap on Jun 27, 2018 0:57:52 GMT
I was thinking the disk had a bit of runout because of careless work, causing some odd forces. This is complete speculation as I never tested it. There was no excessive play in the bearing and even when extremely over tightened the wheel still turned freely! Unfortunately it's all speculation now anyway. Chris's post just remined me of the issue I had and got me wondering about the disk! It was really alarming how quickly it became loose when I monitored it, I remember that!
Chris can you elaborate on why modify the nut.
The tapered washer sticks out from the hub a bit dosent it, so the nut face should only contact the washer in any case? Have you had an issue with this washer hence the mod? I wonder if this was my problem?
Nick
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Post by dave1800 on Jun 27, 2018 7:46:55 GMT
If I recall Chris was using s flat washer next to the nut at one time instead of the nut tightening directly against the conical washer and we had some debate as to which was correct. I only used the flat washer to bed the bearings and then removed it. The example I had of rapid wear was on a journey at night of around only 50 miles or so and the nut became loose around half way. By the time I got home it had to be re-tightened several times. The hub was shot of course and I should have stopped - it was easy to detect on the steering fortunately despite it being PAS. But as you say frightening rate of wear. It was too late to identify the cause but after that I never had another problem by taking up the end play correctly. An interesting thought about the disk vibration, certainly I think lots of harsh braking could start the process if there is any end float. I always used loctite on the splines and nut after this experience, not sure if it really helped but it made me happier!
David
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. Actually once you've done it once it all becomes clear even though it may sound daunting. Have a look at the Moss videos again and there's a further quick trick to check many of the standard BMC cams to complement the Moss suggestions, all will be divulged soon or Google 110 degrees.
