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Post by Penguin45 on Sept 7, 2013 20:17:16 GMT
Speaking of, funnily, among all the 1800s I've come across up here- most of them have had a conservative party sticker on the rear windscreen:-) At least when they were new, the crabs were typical upper middle class cars up here. I've heard that a former conservative Norwegian PM also drove an 1800 for years.T Tommy raises an interesting point here - just how was the 1800 perceived? I've always considered the Wolseley version as a typical "bank managers" car. Solid, dependable, traditional in style. Not raffish in the manner of the Riley or Jaguar. We know that Mrs Thatcher had one and Tommy tells us above of a previous Norwegian Prime Minister using one. The Austins and Morrises sold to a typical British market who "always bought Austin" or "always bought Morris" regardless of the fact that the vehicles were one and the same ( and the brands had been merged since 1952). This, surely was an issue which BMC and latterly BL should have dealt with firmly by promoting BMC in the early days. Latterly, the BL name became a virtual laughing stock due to the continuing problems through the 70's and offered no real chance of building up a brand image. Surely keeping Austin and Morris, whilst "creating" Mini and Princess did little to consolidate BL as a brand? I suspect I've started two hares running there! Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Sept 8, 2013 3:09:08 GMT
Chris, your location is shown as "Soviet Republic of Yorkshire" so I was interested to see your comments to Tommy about elections  . For those non Brit readers, historically Yorkshire was a county in England commonly thought of as a separate country because of the different nature of the natives. It is now split into 3 counties but the reputation remains. Having lived there for 14 enjoyable years I understand that one's family needs to live there for more than 3 generations to start to be accepted as a Yorkshire native, although Chris kindly referred to me some time ago an honorary Yorkshire man. Trying to go back on subject, I have been trying to think back to when the 1800 was first made. I recall seeing a green 1800 being driven to the local BMC agent one day before the release and thinking "what is that scurrying along the Warwick Road?". Living in the Midlands we all knew it was on its way and my initial impression back in 1964 was one of great disappointment. Following the Mini and clean lines of the 1100 and the impressive, to my eyes, of the big Austin Westminster and Wolseley 6/110 and VDP 3 litre this was weird. It wasn't until I was a passenger in one back in early 1965 that I was amazed, and driving one in 1966 became a convert. I recall the reaction of my neighbours' parents however. For some die hard BMC believers, they were far too complex compared with their Farinas and they either purchased another Farina or in the case of a Wolseley 15/60 owner moved to a Rover 2000, because he wouldn't step back down the ladder to the Austin. In some ways in the English Midlands it was a bit like Australia where many still either support Ford or Holden. If your were a BMC person a Ford was not an option irrespective of a model's virtues. I believe BMC lost a number of customers by not bringing out a Wolseley and other versions at the start. I am sure I will be shouted down but remember the early 60s were still austere times and there was little money in the UK for car development. In that environment I personally thought that badge engineering was a cheap and effective solution to appeal to loyal MG, Wolseley, Riley, VDP buyers. However by this time there was criticism of the badge engineering policy maybe started by competitors comments and the 1800 range as we know was limited to AMW. Getting finally to the question of who owned the 1800s, as commented they were seen as senior executives and bank managers cars, alo used by senior Govermnent officials and Ministers, but also I think by people with more than two children who needed space but not a petrol drinking Zodiac. They were also loved by the military as personnel carriers which they could also rally and use off road. Finally there were converts like myself who actually enjoyed driving them. They were an excellent "Q" car especially on cross country roads. I think that the jokes are primarily about BL and there is still a lot of respect for BMC ( John Cleese and his 1100 thrashing apart). When BMC was absorbed into the BL empire I believe Lord Stokes, the Chairman and MD (a role conflict!) immediately took the opportunity to damage his old rivals and the rot began. To be fair the amalgamation produced a lot of unnecessary model overlaps, but he sacrificed the innovative BMC vehicles. As we moved to the 70s and 80s life became much more about image than substance and BL was tortured by the press. So a case of BL - hare today gone tomorrow. Now for the other hare? David Surely keeping Austin and Morris, whilst "creating" Mini and Princess did little to consolidate BL as a brand? I suspect I've started two hares running there! Chris. |
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Post by Nick RS on Sept 8, 2013 16:33:12 GMT
Very interesting reading from David, as a view from someone who had experience of the cars when they were new. As a replacement for the Austin Cambridge BMC allowed the product development to drift so far away from the original brief that the 1800 became an addition to the BMC range rather than a replacement. My belief is had they stuck to a 1500cc size car with a shorter wheelbase they would have sold more units and not needed to develop the Maxi a few years later. Comments that I have read from the time criticise the styling and the width of ADO17 but note that it is much shorter than a Farina Cambridge. Speaking to my own family they remember them as very wide and a bit ungainly. However when they see one now the proportions look right - modern cars are definitely wider. I followed a Ford Corsair home from work the other week. Two things interested me; one, the driver wasn't holding back and two, how narrow the whole thing looked. David's comment about there not being an upmarket (Wolseley) version from day one is really interesting, I'd never considered that BMC might of lost sales from people unwilling to come down to an Austin before but it makes absolute sense and I'm surprised that it took until 1967 to launch this version. What also surprises me is that BMC sold the 1800 through only half of its UK dealer network for the first 18 months as there was no Morris version. To my eyes that seems like madness but maybe there was a logical reason for it.
My Grandpa had at least two 1800s in the early years of his retirememt. He was not particularly brand loyal as a list of his cars would reveal (another post, another time) but like David he must have been impressed by them to want to go back for more. When he owned them there was no need for him to have a large car, quite the opposite in fact. It's to my regret that I never spoke to him about his 1800s even though one of them is probably the first car I ever rode in.
An 1800 class car with an oddly proportioned body for the time with a stark interior plus a slightly premium price was not a recipe for success. Perhaps it's a testament of the 1800s good qualities that it sold as many as it did.
Interested to read what others think
Nick
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Post by Penguin45 on Sept 8, 2013 19:12:12 GMT
27 years I've lived up here now, David, and apparently I'm still "nowt but a blow-in"  Politically, I'm probably a good old fashioned socialist (so I haven't even got a proper vote anymore), but I do believe firmly in the democratic process. Unlike David, I came to the 'Crab for the first time in the '80s as a young man with no money and to be honest my maroon MkIII Morris was just a cheap old car that fitted my budget. I did rapidly come to appreciate the huge amount of space it had, the surprising fuel economy and good all round reliability. Back then, there were still a reasonable number to be seen on the roads, so I never really considered that it might look "odd". Nick makes an interesting point that BMC really built a car that didn't have a market - the rise and dominance of the Cortina proves that point quite clearly. In fact, it is worth considering that in 1970, Ford were making the Escort, Cortina, Zephyr and Capri. It was the last year of the Corsair too. So that's Small, Medium, Large and Sporty. The BL range was endless and mind-boggling by comparison. Chris. |
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Post by indianajones on Sept 8, 2013 21:02:42 GMT
Guess I should chip in with a perspective from someone who's father was 3 years old in 1964 lol. I never intended to buy a landcrab when I started looking for a car, I just stumbled across it. My first impression when I saw her in the 'flesh' was one of an odd looking car, but with a charm of it's own. Once I got inside, I was sold there and then. The vast space, the big comfy seats (granted the drivers one was a bit munted, but I repaired it in time), the wooden dash. I guess to me it was something I hadn't experienced before, being used to my mates cars in highschool (late 80s/early 90s Toyotas etc). The perception from a lot of people in my age group is the car isn't 'cool' as it's FWD and dorkey looking. I couldn't care less, in fact, to a certain degree I like it that way as it's keeps the prices down for me Of course the flip side is that we need some of the young people today to get interested in them otherwise they'll just get scrapped in time. -Andrew |
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Post by Penguin45 on Sept 9, 2013 0:06:50 GMT
What also surprises me is that BMC sold the 1800 through only half of its UK dealer network for the first 18 months as there was no Morris version. Well, the previous release was the ADO16 - the Morris 1100, so it was Austin's turn to go first with the new model. It seems absurd to me. Good grief Indy, your Dad is two years younger than me..... At least he's going to be a grandfather first!  Your post goes nicely with my own feelings towards the car. The first one came and went due to the practicalities of the times. This one was a deliberate choice as it rang nostalgic bells all these years later. I suppose it must stand out in some way from the multitude of cheap bangers owned over the years. Nick - "Cars we've owned" or "Family cars" is a great idea for a new thread. Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Sept 9, 2013 2:29:22 GMT
Now I really feel old . Thanks for that! Guess I should chip in with a perspective from someone who's father was 3 years old in 1964 lol. = -Andrew |
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Post by dave1800 on Sept 9, 2013 2:33:39 GMT
Yes, I'd forgotten that the local BMC showrooms at the time were either Austin OR Morris although I think the parts sales were across the whole range? David What also surprises me is that BMC sold the 1800 through only half of its UK dealer network for the first 18 months as there was no Morris version. To my eyes that seems like madness but maybe there was a logical reason for it. Nick |
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Post by dave1800 on Sept 9, 2013 2:55:16 GMT
I was fortunate enough to drive a Mk1 1800 in 1965 shortly after passing my test and had one in the family from around 1967. I didn't, however, have enough money to buy my own Landcrab until 1972 and then had a very tight budget so it was a relatively high mileage car and I wasn't able or willing to pay garages for 90% of the repairs. So began a very long love affair with the 1800. During the fuel crisis of 1974 neighbours tried to encourage me to sell it as they could not believe it was about as economical on fuel as a Ford Escort 1100 on the journeys I had to make. Of course I was not going to do that and "big" cars like the 1800 were almost impossible to sell. I could never get my head around why people sold off cars losing thousands in today's money to save a few hundred pounds in fuel. I believe BMC at that time thought they knew what the public wanted; but the public voted with their pockets and deprived themselves of experiencing one of the most interesting cars of the time. BLMC as it was first called brought about an irrational car line up with the merger of the companies and it was essential to rationalise it to mirror that of Ford and Vauxhall. Sadly, the former BMC model line was the victim. David Unlike David, I came to the 'Crab for the first time in the '80s as a young man with no money and to be honest my maroon MkIII Morris was just a cheap old car that fitted my budget. I did rapidly come to appreciate the huge amount of space it had, the surprising fuel economy and good all round reliability. Back then, there were still a reasonable number to be seen on the roads, so I never really considered that it might look "odd". Nick makes an interesting point that BMC really built a car that didn't have a market - the rise and dominance of the Cortina proves that point quite clearly. In fact, it is worth considering that in 1970, Ford were making the Escort, Cortina, Zephyr and Capri. It was the last year of the Corsair too. So that's Small, Medium, Large and Sporty. The BL range was endless and mind-boggling by comparison. Chris. |
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Post by Nick RS on Sept 9, 2013 21:52:24 GMT
I've been re-reading some of the road test articles and features that I have collected over the last year and a couple of themes emerge. Nobody admires the styling of the car though they stop short of calling it plain ugly. It is however praised for it's packaging benefits derived from FWD and the suspension set-up. In one of the articles an Austin 1800 is group tested with near competitors for 'Family men with two or more children looking for comfortable but lively transport and middle level company executives ...... 4/5 seat saloons costing just under £1000' - Motor. It is also criticised for problems at the start of its life but was a sorted car by the time the MkII came out. An Autocar road test in 1968 said that at first the 1800 'met massive buyer resistance' which is quite strong for the time, they didn't really elaborate as to why.
When you look forward to the 1970s it becomes obvious how Ford took over from BLMC. They correctly sensed that buyers were accepting larger cars and introduced the Mk3 Cortina (replacing Mk2 & Corsair) and swept the board. The Morris Marina and the Vauxhall Viva almost found themselves in a size class below the Ford; ironic considering this did no favours to the 1800 when launched. Chris's list of Fords would eventually see them dominate the market here in the UK. Escort, Cortina, Granada, Capri and after 1976 the Fiesta to take on the Supeminis emerging from the European makers. Vauxhall only began to compete when they adopted the German Opel designs with little alteration, and even then only really in the 80s when the FWD Cavalier gave Ford a bloody nose in the fleet market. As a family we had Vauxhalls in the mid/late 70s and they were firmly in the minority compared Ford.
There has been a lot of talk on other sites about what might have been with British Leyland but most of them overlook the empty bank balances following development and pricing / sale of BMC's products of the 60s. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if I had been in charge of the Austin-Morris division in 1970 I would have looked seriously at designing a new 1100 on the existing platform (called a top hat these days) and then I would have asked my product development team to take the Marina, Maxi and 1800 and replace the lot with just one car with a launch of around 1975. Anything left over would go on a premium product to replace the Dolomite. Maybe even that is too ambitious given the available resources at the time.
Chris, As the nights draw in I'll definitely put some cars from the my past on a post if someone else doesn't start it first. I think I've had about 50 myself over the past 25 years and I know of some interesting ones (with pictures) in the family that go back to 1920. Don't worry I won't do them all, just a selection that have a tale or two to tell.
Nick
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Post by ahctog1 on Sept 18, 2013 21:22:23 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts.... perhaps keeping the A60 range running alongside stole sales from the landcrab, we will never know, but I believe the best sales year was 1970 which coincides with the A60's wind down of models. Maybe a clue there?
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. For those non Brit readers, historically Yorkshire was a county in England commonly thought of as a separate country because of the different nature of the natives. It is now split into 3 counties but the reputation remains. Having lived there for 14 enjoyable years I understand that one's family needs to live there for more than 3 generations to start to be accepted as a Yorkshire native, although Chris kindly referred to me some time ago an honorary Yorkshire man. 
Politically, I'm probably a good old fashioned socialist (so I haven't even got a proper vote anymore), but I do believe firmly in the democratic process.
Your post goes nicely with my own feelings towards the car. The first one came and went due to the practicalities of the times. This one was a deliberate choice as it rang nostalgic bells all these years later. I suppose it must stand out in some way from the multitude of cheap bangers owned over the years.
