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Post by tommydp on Oct 24, 2012 6:15:04 GMT
 Well, I rather feel like the over eager student, who always asks the questions nobody knows the answer to:-) Guess I'm just curious by nature, and want explanation to things I don't understand. By all means, I could have driven along happily and never noticed this, but.. not me:-) The fouled plug: It feels like oil, and does not smell like petrol. Will be interesting to see if it continues with the new distributor. There is a bypass valve in the filter housing, and perhaps I should try a different relief valve. I'm also thinking of getting another oil filter, Unipart GFE166 /148 just to see if things change. Not sure why oil would flow through the bypass valve only, and not the filter, when the filter is new. Will update:-)
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Post by tommydp on Oct 24, 2012 19:45:41 GMT
A quick update! Distributor has still not arrived, but OK as I'lll have the time to figure out the oil pressure first. Also, it has started snowing here today, so the crab hibernates in the garage anyway:-)
There is something strange about the oil pressure. The pump btw is a genuine 1800 pump. Got it off ebay when rebuilding the engine, correct number, in Leyland box.-)
I put in another relief valve today. Started it from cold it showed a steady pressure, around 62 PSI. Revving, it rose steadily to 75, then blew off. All fine in other words. I was also relieved to see an instant, steady rise of the pressure when accelerating and not the initial dipping as seen yesterday. Also when opening the oil filler cap the pressure went up a bit and remained steady. All ok as the revs go up a bit.
As the engine heated up, pressure went down to a steady 50 PSI and it still went up steadily when revving, and returned steadily down to 50 again when returning to idle.
All well I thought, but no... After a further few minutes the gauge started fluctuating and the car started stumbling, without me touching anything.. Oil pressure now suddenly went up to 68 PSI while standing idling. Now it behaved exactly as on the video yesterday.
I then left it for about 15 minutes, started it up again and after a while pressure was down to 50 again and rising fine and instantly when revving, then settling at 50 again. It was idling sweetly.
Went outside to have a cig, in order not to pass away by the exhaust... Standing outside it started stumbling again after some minutes. Went inside to have a look at the gauge, and... yes, you guessed it.. It was now up to 68 again, acting the same way as in the video!
OK, this is not the end of the world, but it doesn't seem right. I notice there are some drops of oil coming from the bottom of the oil filter. I'm thinking of flushing the oil, removing the filter housing and use some compressed air here and there. Then fill her up with fresh oil and fit a new UNIPART GFE 166 filter. Perhaps I'd do the strainer at the same time..
Oil is clearly getting to the rockers by the way. I don't think this rocker assembly has the oil drillings in the ball resting in the top of the pushrod, but that shouldn't matter I guess. The head and rockers are a matched pair, believe it or not..
Regards, Tommy
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Post by Penguin45 on Oct 25, 2012 0:16:08 GMT
Breathers? What did you fit? Y piece from the tappet cover or PCV valve?
I was told many years ago that so long as the gauge moves, you've got oil pressure, so stop worrying.
The only other thing that springs to mind is the heavier weight of oil and cold weather. It's thicker - any restrictions round the oilways may show an exaggerated effect on the pressure readings.
Conjecture - don't really know the answer.
Chris.
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Post by dave1800 on Oct 25, 2012 0:58:18 GMT
Sure, the cold weather will raise the pressure of the oil on cold starting and that is when the bypass valve can come into play if the filter offers too much resistance to the thick oil. "Better to have unfiltered oil than not enough". Now had time to read up on the screw on filters and there are lots of differences in the design on the built in by pass arrangements between the FRAM and Unipart filters. One of the references I found to this problem on a MGB involved a FRAM filter that had distorted and ripped -whether the cause or the symptom who knows. The thread like many on the web was left hanging. Whether that is the cause of the problem I don't really know and am baffled at the apparent link with the change in engine speed when idling. As Chris says check out the breather arrangements and please keep us informed of progress. Maybe take the breather pipe off the carb or manifold and put a container in line with it to see whether there is a shot of oil coming through causing the engine hesitation / misfiring. I can't really see how the crankcase pressure can affect the oil pressure to this degree and vice versa. If you decide to try and blow out the oil ways you need to think carefully about where you want any gunge to go. I think I would opt for using the correct filter as a start. Clearly there was an issue with the old pressure release valve as you no longer get the initial fall in pressure, maybe the filter has suffered internal damage - I'm clutching at straws here! Regards David Breathers? What did you fit? Y piece from the tappet cover or PCV valve? Conjecture - don't really know the answer. Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Oct 25, 2012 12:07:44 GMT
I've just read an explanation that could just be plausible. It claimed that on a MGB after changing to a Fram filter the design blocked much of the normal filter flow forcing the by pass to open at higher speeds. The result being high idle pressure but correct at higher engine speed as the pressure release valve regulated the maximum pressure - but unfiltered oil circulating. Unfortunately there was no follow up on the thread but apparently the oil pressure was "normal" prior to fitting the filter. Others have noted low oil pressure using Fram filters so maybe there is a real issue - perhaps as simple as using the wrong one as there is lots of support for these filters as well as bad press. IF this is right the solution is simple use the correct Unipart filter and change the oil. You can examine the filters and head to see if this explanation is plausible (now I'm being the teacher . ) Good luck - again! regards David |
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Post by tommydp on Oct 25, 2012 15:51:04 GMT
Dave, you're a star!
Really sounds like the issue I'm facing and I have in deed used only the FRAM 966 B filters since the rebuild. Strange, as these filters have always been common as hanging spin on filters on B series engines up here. Marina, 1800, Princess, MGB... Fram is for some reason a very common filter in Norway in general.
Perhaps they've altered this particular filter in some ways since the good old days? They fit various Opels, Fords etc too.
Anyway, I'll try to fit the UNIPART filter, GFE 166 first. It's on its way in the mail.. This is identical to GFE 148 as far as I can see and is listed for the 1800. It's also used on Minis.
Regarding your earlier posts, in deed temperatures make a difference, but why would it, for no appearent reason suddenly rise from 50 to 68 when car has idled for 20 minutes.. Also, as it came into this mode, it was dipping again when revving and not going up steadily. I'm using the PCV valve arrangement. It works well as you can hear in the videos. I've blown through the oil separator, and it then blows up the oil filler hole so no restriction here.
Thanks Dave! Looking forward to getting that Unipart filter!
Regards, Tommy
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Post by dave1800 on Oct 26, 2012 1:54:31 GMT
From the world of crazy theories how about this? There is some restriction in the oil filter and when the oil is cold and thick some of the oil is going through the bypass valve which is part of the screw on filter. After a while the oil thins as it heats up and this bypass valve closes, (it is described as being crude and plastic on Fram filters on threads I have read). However there is still too much resistance in the filter so the pressure increases above normal but not enough to trigger the bypass valve. This would account for the increase in the idle pressure. Now when you rev the engine the excess pressure initially (partially) opens the bypass valve - the pressure initially falls then rises again as the engine speeds up. Hope it makes some sense even if it's total rubbish, my head hurts! Regards David but why would it, for no appearent reason suddenly rise from 50 to 68 when car has idled for 20 minutes.. Regards, Tommy |
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Post by tommydp on Oct 26, 2012 9:52:52 GMT
Makes perfect sense to me! I think we're on to something here!
At least it seems Fram filters are not what they used to be, according to most sources on the net... That said, I've also read articles on issues with other filter brands, including Unipart and other well know ones.
It seems to boil down to the fact many of them are made in the far East these days....
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Post by tommydp on Oct 30, 2012 18:01:44 GMT
Not much progress on the oil pressure issue, as the winter suddenly arrived here. Lots of snow and temperatures down to minus 10 degrees Celsius. Sadly, I don't have a heated, comfortable garage to work in so further work will have to wait until the weather gets warmer.
Unipart filter has not yet arrived, but I managed to do some research before the cold weather set in. I got another filter of a different brand but still listed for the same vehicles, just to see if things changed compared to the FRAM filter. The results were exactly the same.
Started out at around 70 psi cold and went down to 50 after heating up at a long time of idling. From then it responded nicely to revving, going up steadily and returning to 50 again. After idling for further 10 minutes or so the pressure suddenly went up to 68- 70 psi and remained there at idle. Exactly like earlier, in other words. Now it would again dip when revving and not rise steadily.
I suppose this could be an indication the filter could possibly not be the problem, but who knows. Seems there is more to oil filters than I ever knew. I've always thought it was a simple paper filter and was not aware of bypass valvves etc inside the filter itself. After all there is a bypass valve in the engine's own filter head too..
Anyway, I'm determined to find out what causes this. I believe there is a partial blockage after the filter somewhere. There is a slight oil leak from the filter too, even though it's tightened nicely. I'm thinking of flushing the oil system, removing the oil filter head and possibly blow compressed air through the oil ways. Perhaps some debris has accumulated somewhere after the rebuild and running in period?
Any ideas how to successfully attempt a blow out like this? What about removing the oil filter head assembly and supply pipe, the relief valve and the rocker shaft. Then blowing out the complete rocker assembly and down the rocker oil supply hole in the cylinder head? Alternatively up the supply after the filter head?
I've got the distributor btw. In short, this must be a masterpiece! Everything has been changed and it comes with a chart of calibration, which is perfect. Looking forward to putting it in, but I'll fix the oil pressure first!
The 1800 will spend the winter in the garage anyway, avoiding the salted roads. I use my fabulous, reliable Rover 600 turbo as a daily driver through the winter. Marvellous car!
Regards, Tommy
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Post by dave1800 on Oct 31, 2012 1:19:27 GMT
Of course many 1800 owners don't know what their oil pressure is and I am in two minds as to whether it is a good thing or not! On the one hand an oil pressure gauge can give reassurance that the engine bearings are in good shape and allows you to monitor the gradual wear over the life time. On the other hand if you are a worrier I have seen it detract from the pleasure of owning and driving a car as it can become an obsession. Turning to your car's problem though, I think it is good that you have identified the issue but the cause is far from clear. First I would agree that the syptoms are not what I would expect even on a newly rebuilt engine, but others may put me right on this? If you look at the oil flow diagrams in the handook they can help you understand if not necessarily resolve the problem. The first thing to remember it that it is an open system so the pressure reading will be higher at the pump and at its lowest at the end of the line. The pressure you are seeing on your gauge therefore reflects what is happening after the gauge. The first suspects are the filter and its associated bypass valve(s) and the presssure release valve (prv). It would appear from your replacements that the prv is not the offending item and the probability of the filter is reduced now the replacement displays similar pressures. Next to check, when it gets warmer and stops snowing is the filter head - you can take it off and examine it somewhere warm. I'm not sure if there IS a bypass valve in the later models with the screw in filter or not and the manual doesn't elaborate. After that the oil flows to the main bearings, camshaft and rockers. From the w/s diagram I would suggest you look at the flow to the rockers. If this is higher than usual it could indicate that there is some restriction after the first main bearing is served - but remember this is a new engine. However I would have thought this would have shown up by now and doesn't fit with what is happening in terms of pressure changes, unless as the oil thins it allows the crud to move further down an oilway, but why should it go back again on cooling. Yes you could blow out the system from the end of the line - the rocker feed after removing the filter - using compressed air and some flushing oil - but remember the block drillings for the oilways have several dead ends where any sediment could lodge. If you do this I would try both directions, up and down. It would be a good idea to reprime the oilways afterwards or take the plugs out and spin the engine to avoid dry bearings under load. The symptoms still suggest something associated with the filter and bypass though IMHO. Anyone else have thoughts or related experience to help solve Tommy's latest problem?
Any chance of posting a copy of the distributor calibration chart sometime? I am curious as to the settings, thanks. Regards David Not much progress on the oil pressure issue, as the winter suddenly arrived here. Lots of snow and temperatures down to minus 10 degrees Celsius. Sadly, I don't have a heated, comfortable garage to work in so further work will have to wait until the weather gets warmer. Unipart filter has not yet arrived, but I managed to do some research before the cold weather set in. I got another filter of a different brand but still listed for the same vehicles, just to see if things changed compared to the FRAM filter. The results were exactly the same. Started out at around 70 psi cold and went down to 50 after heating up at a long time of idling. From then it responded nicely to revving, going up steadily and returning to 50 again. After idling for further 10 minutes or so the pressure suddenly went up to 68- 70 psi and remained there at idle. Exactly like earlier, in other words. Now it would again dip when revving and not rise steadily. I suppose this could be an indication the filter could possibly not be the problem, but who knows. Seems there is more to oil filters than I ever knew. I've always thought it was a simple paper filter and was not aware of bypass valvves etc inside the filter itself. After all there is a bypass valve in the engine's own filter head too.. Anyway, I'm determined to find out what causes this. I believe there is a partial blockage after the filter somewhere. There is a slight oil leak from the filter too, even though it's tightened nicely. I'm thinking of flushing the oil system, removing the oil filter head and possibly blow compressed air through the oil ways. Perhaps some debris has accumulated somewhere after the rebuild and running in period? Any ideas how to successfully attempt a blow out like this? What about removing the oil filter head assembly and supply pipe, the relief valve and the rocker shaft. Then blowing out the complete rocker assembly and down the rocker oil supply hole in the cylinder head? Alternatively up the supply after the filter head? I've got the distributor btw. In short, this must be a masterpiece! Everything has been changed and it comes with a chart of calibration, which is perfect. Looking forward to putting it in, but I'll fix the oil pressure first! The 1800 will spend the winter in the garage anyway, avoiding the salted roads. I use my fabulous, reliable Rover 600 turbo as a daily driver through the winter. Marvellous car! Regards, Tommy |
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Post by kelsham on Oct 31, 2012 8:46:41 GMT
Jaguar cars altered the sender on the Jaguar XJS, so it read a steady high reading at all times on the later cars. Can,t remember exact figure, it was in response to owners who were concerned about low oil pressure when idling.
I had some odd symptoms on a 1933 BSA four cylinder sidevalve engine. The pressure would gradually drop as the oil warmed up on a run.
Strangely as you entered a built up area and slowed down the pressure would rise on the gauge.
It was cured by reseating the bypass valve.
It seems a case of to much information being available, this is probably why the manufacturers fitted warning lights instead of gauges.
Kels.
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Post by dave1800 on Oct 31, 2012 11:56:11 GMT
Tommy, when the gauge started to fluctuate and the pressure shot up and the car stumbled were you using the electric gauge? If so this could indicate an electrical issue causing ignition weakness and the voltage across the gauge to change? I think there are 2 things to focus on. First the high idle pressure which could just be down to a tight engine and second the stumble. I agree with Kels there is merit in just having an oil pressure switch and good worry free sleep at nights! Regards David All well I thought, but no... After a further few minutes the gauge started fluctuating and the car started stumbling, without me touching anything.. Oil pressure now suddenly went up to 68 PSI while standing idling. Now it behaved exactly as on the video yesterday. Regards, Tommy |
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Post by tommydp on Oct 31, 2012 20:27:03 GMT
While doing this I've used the Sykes Pickavant hook up garage type, mechanical gauge. Same results when trying an electrical gauge as well as a Smiths mechanical gauge, so very unlikely it's down to gauge(s).
In deed I can just leave it as it is, drive along happily and use the oil pressure light only which always works as it should. However, to me, the symptom suggests something's not right. I'm just the kind of person who's not satisfied with anything less than perfect, so I will get to the bottom of this!
The oil filter head has got a spring loaded ball type of valve in it, which to me looks like the one in the earlier type oil filter heads. The one which has a warning light connected to it on mk1s (and earlier mk2s I think, my white mk2 has this..)
Weather forecast suggests (...) warmer weather from Friday, so will look into this Friday night as I have the whole evening on my own:-) I'm thinking of using an engine flush, draining the oil and blow compressed air from rocker oil feed, as well as from the filter head area. I'll remove the oil filter head and the rocker assembly and let it soak in diesel overnight, and possibly clean and try a different oil filter head.
I will upload pics of the distributor and the chart later!
Regards, Tommy
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Post by indianajones on Nov 1, 2012 2:43:09 GMT
My oil pressure light doesn't work (it's the amber one on the right correct? well on a Wolseley)
Need to get that fixed!
-Andrew
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Post by tommydp on Nov 1, 2012 7:38:32 GMT
My oil pressure light doesn't work (it's the amber one on the right correct? well on a Wolseley) Need to get that fixed! -Andrew You should fix that, Andrew. Most likely the oil pressure transmitter unit, on the engine block left of the distributor. Try earthing the wire going into it with ignition turned on. If the light glows, you've found the fault. Change the sender/ transmitter. If it doesn't glow the bulb or wiring is at fault. Regards, Tommy |
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Well, I rather feel like the over eager student, who always asks the questions nobody knows the answer to:-) Guess I'm just curious by nature, and want explanation to things I don't understand. 
