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Post by dave1800 on Mar 26, 2014 12:20:41 GMT
Have you considered electronic ignition, (I'll hide now!)  David Been pottering round this afternoon. Car juddering and jolting under acceleration. Ignition switch very warm when we got back. Dash board demolition tomorrow, I suppose.  Chris. |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 1, 2014 20:21:45 GMT
Sorry to hear that.. You're running points now right, Chris? Are you sure you have a quality condenser? I only say it as I see from the last picture, there's a green wire coming from the distributor. Some of the bad condensers around have green wires.. Lucas ones have black wires coming out of the dizzy. It could be the ignition switch itself too, of course. Time to do some voltage drop testing:-) Good luck! Tommy Fixed it this evening  . Quite bizarre fault. I had tried re-timing it and got some strange wandering results with the timing light strobe, so went to re-check the points gap and found that the plate upon which they mount was floating in relation to the base plate. Odd..... Pulled dizzy and took it into the garage to find that the base plate had lifted, allowing to points plate to disengage from the vacuum advance rod and flop around all over the place. The base plate isn't positively held in place. There are two prongs which locate it by sitting one either side of the vacuum advance capsule retaining screw, then a small screw which goes into a slot. When the screw is tightened, it opens the slot and wedges the plate in place. Crude and not working on this dizzy. A few minutes with a pair of pliers and some light hammer action got the expansion slot working such that the plate locked. Put it all back together, static timed it to 10° BTDC and she started first time, which is worrying in itself, as she normally starts second time, every time. Managed to drop the idle down to about a stable 800rpm, which I haven't been able to do since changing back to points. Once round the block reveals that, once again, I own a racing car. Pleased with that, but definitely an odd one. Chris. |
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Post by indianajones on Apr 1, 2014 20:52:01 GMT
I had tried re-timing it and got some strange wandering results with the timing light strobe. When you say wandering, do you mean the timing mark is moving a bit when you have the light on it? As mine seems to that a wee bit, perhaps I should look at my dizzy. -Andrew |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 1, 2014 23:10:01 GMT
It was way out when checked. Stop engine, adjust dizzy by what ought to be an appropriate amount, re-start engine, get readings which made no sense from the strobe. Eventually, do it by eye and ear and it would drive OK. Start up the following day, and it would run like an absolute nail. As I said, it didn't make a lot of sense. David probably has an explanation, 'cos he's good at ignition, but having owned and run the car for 10 years, I do know that 10-12° BTDC is somewhere roughly around 1 o'clock with the vacuum advance pipe. What was happening made no sense at all. Driving the 12 miles down to college in the morning and I'm expecting a relaxed, smooth and fast run. Maybe.  Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 2, 2014 1:37:30 GMT
How many crankshaft degrees is it wandering with the timing light? Does it settle down if you disconnect the vacuum advance pipe and block it. It shouldn't come into play at idle. Does it settle down if you wind up the idle to 1000rpm? Have a look at the crankshaft pulley (harmonic damper) is the rubber swollen or hard allowing the inner and outer parts to rotate / oscillate? Is the engine running smoothly or are you seeing the timing change with a rough idle? Also check the distributor shaft for play in the bearing. Any further investigation probably means taking the distributor out to check the springs and checking the timing chain. David I had tried re-timing it and got some strange wandering results with the timing light strobe. When you say wandering, do you mean the timing mark is moving a bit when you have the light on it? As mine seems to that a wee bit, perhaps I should look at my dizzy. -Andrew |
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Post by tommydp on Apr 2, 2014 1:41:32 GMT
Well done, Chris! Interesting fault.
I'm not sure, but it sounds like this could be an early/ rare 45 d distributor, with this screw holding the points plate.
If so, I've actually seen a problem like this mentioned in the Norwegian BL service bulletins. Here an additional screw was fitted to overcome the problem. Later 45 d distributors had a redesigned points plate.
I've always had my 1800s starting instantly using points. IMO they often need to be retarted a bit compared to original setting, to overcome pinking up hill.
BTW, if I remember correctly, isn't the static setting for a 45 d as little as 3 degrees btdc and dynamic 10 degrees at 1000 rpm, while the 25 d is 9 degress statically and 12 degrees at 600 rpm?
Tommy
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 2, 2014 1:43:07 GMT
Now I'm confused (easily done  . Your post below is showing here a few hours after the one describing the problem with the base plate. Are you now saying that the setting is no longer at around 1 o'clock or is it all OK now? David It was way out when checked. Stop engine, adjust dizzy by what ought to be an appropriate amount, re-start engine, get readings which made no sense from the strobe. Eventually, do it by eye and ear and it would drive OK. Start up the following day, and it would run like an absolute nail. As I said, it didn't make a lot of sense. David probably has an explanation, 'cos he's good at ignition, but having owned and run the car for 10 years, I do know that 10-12° BTDC is somewhere roughly around 1 o'clock with the vacuum advance pipe. What was happening made no sense at all. Driving the 12 miles down to college in the morning and I'm expecting a relaxed, smooth and fast run. Maybe. Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 2, 2014 2:55:16 GMT
Interesting issue I have never seen. My UK BL w/shop manual shows the timing as 14 degrees BTDC at 1000 rpm and 22-26 degrees at 2000 rpm and no mention of any static timing figure for the 1800 1973-1975 ECE15. However, looking at the distributor advance checks would point to a static of 9-11. As far as I know the Mk111 engine only differs from the Mk11 in having single valve springs, single timing chain different crankcase breathing to the carb MGB style none of which should affect the timing, and of course the 45D distributor. Where did your figures come from Tommy? David Well done, Chris! Interesting fault. I'm not sure, but it sounds like this could be an early/ rare 45 d distributor, with this screw holding the points plate. If so, I've actually seen a problem like this mentioned in the Norwegian BL service bulletins. Here an additional screw was fitted to overcome the problem. Later 45 d distributors had a redesigned points plate. I've always had my 1800s starting instantly using points. IMO they often need to be retarted a bit compared to original setting, to overcome pinking up hill. BTW, if I remember correctly, isn't the static setting for a 45 d as little as 3 degrees btdc and dynamic 10 degrees at 1000 rpm, while the 25 d is 9 degress statically and 12 degrees at 600 rpm? Tommy |
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Post by tommydp on Apr 2, 2014 5:58:12 GMT
Yes, I know the static setting is not mentioned very often for the 45 d, but I've seen it in some manual. I'll get back to it.
Dave, don't get Chris into timing Chain and camshaft thinking:-) His Gold seal engine is barely run in:-)
It's just a matter of the Points plate coming lose.
Tommy
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 2, 2014 7:44:58 GMT
The comments on timing scatter were targeted at Andrew (indianajones) in response to his comments - sorry not very clear on reflection. Chris' problems were clearly quite catastrophic. Not sure I've ever met anyone with so many ignition problems. Just to complete the data I have for the UK Mk111 1800 1973-75 (HC engines) from AKD 4138 12th Edition Distributor 25D4 41234 OR 45D4 41415 Dwell 25D4 60+/- 3 degrees; 45D4 51 +/- 5 degrees Deceleration checks crankshaft degrees @ rpm vacuum pipe disconnected 24-28 @ 4,400 rpm 18-22 @ 3,200 rpm 10-14 @ 2,200 rpm 2-6 @ 1,200 rpm The same mechanical weight advance figures are shown for both the 25D4 and 45D4 as the vacuum units are the same to (1-7-6) For the UK, these look the same as the Mk11 HC engines other than the "S" although there is a 600rpm 12 degrees stroboscopic quoted for Mk11 engines not noted for Mk111. It would be interesting if the ignition specs for Norway Landcrabs differ noticeably and to explore the reasons. Of course these specs relate to the leaded fuel available at the time (4 star in UK)and may now need to be modified. Regards David Yes, I know the static setting is not mentioned very often for the 45 d, but I've seen it in some manual. I'll get back to it. Dave, don't get Chris into timing Chain and camshaft thinking:-) His Gold seal engine is barely run in:-) It's just a matter of the Points plate coming lose. Tommy |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 2, 2014 20:18:45 GMT
Well, I've left it at 10° BTDC and run the car three times. Scarily, it has started first time, each time. Now as we know, this car always starts second time, every time. It's probably planning something unspeakable. Anyway, 24 mile round trip to college and back and it was an absolute pleasure. I think I'll leave things very alone for a while. Chris. |
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Post by dave1800 on Apr 3, 2014 1:09:34 GMT
Is that 10 degrees static? Very wise decision to leave it alone, I believe David Well, I've left it at 10° BTDC and run the car three times. Scarily, it has started first time, each time. Now as we know, this car always starts second time, every time. It's probably planning something unspeakable. Anyway, 24 mile round trip to college and back and it was an absolute pleasure. I think I'll leave things very alone for a while. Chris. |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 3, 2014 14:29:07 GMT
Static timing at present, David. I'm going to use her for a while to get a feel for how she's driving and then we might try and refine things a bit. I suspect that I've pretty much nailed it.
Chris.
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 3, 2014 15:24:17 GMT
And - Further to Tommy's comment about the green wire, I have spoken to Martin THE DISTRIBUTOR DOCTOR and ordered up a couple of red rotor arms, points and condensers with a yellow wire. Chris. |
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Post by Penguin45 on Apr 26, 2014 20:23:22 GMT
Which duly came and the high quality components were fitted and the spares went into the picnic hamper in the boot. And she ran very well down to Longbridge and back before starting to run rough again coming back from college. The following day, she wouldn't start at all.......
Today, I made a determined effort to resolve this. Spark - yes. Fuel - yes. Run - no. Check timing three times - OK. Gap points - OK. Gap plugs - OK. Run - no. In the end Adi came down and we went through the whole thing once more. After much head scratching, doubling up of batteries and jump start pack we were no further forward. In desparation more than anything, I removed the plugs from the Austins' engine and fitted them to the Wolseley. It started first time..... We have absolutely know idea what or why, but it worked. We even fitted the original NGKs back in and she wouldn't go. Back in with the Champions and away she went.
Hurrah for ancient Champion plugs.
Off to Gaydon in her tomorrow for the Wolseley Owners Club AGM.
Chris.
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Been pottering round this afternoon. Car juddering and jolting under acceleration. Ignition switch very warm when we got back. Dash board demolition tomorrow, I suppose. 
. Quite bizarre fault. I had tried re-timing it and got some strange wandering results with the timing light strobe, so went to re-check the points gap and found that the plate upon which they mount was floating in relation to the base plate. Odd..... Pulled dizzy and took it into the garage to find that the base plate had lifted, allowing to points plate to disengage from the vacuum advance rod and flop around all over the place. The base plate isn't positively held in place. There are two prongs which locate it by sitting one either side of the vacuum advance capsule retaining screw, then a small screw which goes into a slot. When the screw is tightened, it opens the slot and wedges the plate in place. Crude and not working on this dizzy. A few minutes with a pair of pliers and some light hammer action got the expansion slot working such that the plate locked.
. Your post below is showing here a few hours after the one describing the problem with the base plate. Are you now saying that the setting is no longer at around 1 o'clock or is it all OK now?