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Ford!
Feb 18, 2020 3:06:14 GMT
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 18, 2020 3:06:14 GMT
I currently have an issue with my Ford Territory, stop laughing! Of course I have a problem with a Ford Territory! Apologies for the UK readers as they won't of heard of this car. I suppose I am lucky it's not a Holden! Holden have just closed the doors in Australia by the way!
My issue is with the tick over. It is too low when it is in drive or reverse after warm up. No problem when in neutral or cold though. It was very bad at one stage as it was running quite lumpy. Struggling to keep a steady idle as well. This resulted in me cleaning the throttle body which made little difference. In the process of this I realised due to the intake smelling of petrol it had a bad injector. A new set of expensive injectors later and now running and ticking over steady. Fuel consumption also improved dramatically no surprise there. Still low tick over in gear though! This results in vibration of the car. Anyway it has a fully fly by wire throttle and electronic throttle body so no adjustments possible with a screwdriver! I wondered if the oil in the auto box was bad so that got replaced making no difference. I think it may be possible to have Ford adjust it with a laptop but no info found on this. I have not checked for Ford specific fault codes yet as I don't have a Ford code reader and a standard one is no help.
I am really looking for ideas as to what it might be. I'm not sure why the ECU would be getting it wrong as it is perfect in neutral. You would think the ECU would hold it no problem. Torque converter issue? ECU out of adjustment? Scratching head really and don't want to pay ford after last encounter!
Thoughts greatly appreciated. Nick
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Ford!
Feb 18, 2020 9:40:20 GMT
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Post by Penguin45 on Feb 18, 2020 9:40:20 GMT
I'd be looking for an air or vacuum leak in the first instance.
Chris.
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Ford!
Feb 18, 2020 10:16:13 GMT
Post by dave1800 on Feb 18, 2020 10:16:13 GMT
Hi Nick
As Chris says, first thing is to check for an air leak. The ECU will try to compensate for the load when D or R are engaged and raise the idle speed. When warming up this is easier as the A/F mixture will be enrichened before the system goes into closed loop so the effect of a vacuum leak is less obvious.
To rule out a transmission issue leave it in N or P and turn the steering wheel to see if this causes a dip in idle speed, then add electrical load to do the same.
Can you monitor the Lambda sensor(s) to see if they are functioning, using your scope? Does your code reader give any info on short and long term fuel trims? If it is an air leak then the system will be trying to add more fuel at idle but the effect diminishes at higher rpm.
Finally, or maybe this should be the second thing after a visual inspection, can you check the idle air control (IAC) is functioning properly. These can be motorised or PWM driven and can stick or be gummed up.
The ECU controls the idle by adjusting the IAC, altering ignition timing and A/F mixture (or any combination) to maintain the desired idle speed irrespective of load.
Hope this is of some help. Good luck!
David
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Ford!
Feb 19, 2020 2:10:35 GMT
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 19, 2020 2:10:35 GMT
Thanks Chris good idea I will go back and check for air leaks. I did consider that at first until I realised the injector was bad. Replacing it made it tick over a whole lot better so I forgot the air leak idea. It is still very valid though will check!
David I have noted that the Ford Falcon which has the same engine has issues with the IAC valve causing the same fault, but I am as yet unable to find such a valve on this engine! I am assuming the servo for the throttle butterfly does the adjusting but I can find no info on this! Unless it is not near the throttle body and I need to look harder!
It did not occur to me to load the engine other than with D/R doh! I will try this excellent thought!
Thanks guys
Nick
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Ford!
Feb 20, 2020 21:11:16 GMT
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Post by snoopy11 on Feb 20, 2020 21:11:16 GMT
As others have said first check would be a visual check of pipes and filters for something. Also check the mass air flow is clean. Be careful as it’s a delicate sensor. Only real way to diagnose something will be to plug it in.
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Ford!
Feb 21, 2020 15:09:34 GMT
Post by dave1800 on Feb 21, 2020 15:09:34 GMT
Surprisingly one way of checking the MAF on some vehicles is to disconnect it (ignition off) and let the ECU go to a default setting - or rely on the MAP if present. As Snoopy says it's very delicate and can be cleaned with the correct spray, if the carbon residue is very sticky use nothing stronger than a child's small soft paint brush. It works by measuring the cooling of the air passing a resistor/ thermistor which has to be small and light to respond quickly. I had a problem with one one my Saab and it caused all kinds of driveabilty issues rather than idle. Again you can measure the voltage which should typically increase from around 1v to 3.5 to 4v as the rpm are increased.
Did this problem suddenly start or has it been getting worse? Maybe worth a second look at the throttle body to be 100% certain the butterfly is able to fully close?
David
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Ford!
Feb 22, 2020 3:28:25 GMT
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 22, 2020 3:28:25 GMT
Where I am up to so far is a visual check of the tubes etc has not provided any clues. Throttle body seems ok. No IAC valve found. It's is very difficult to see all the areas as you would imagine. I got nothing from a basic OBD reader I borrowed. The MIL light is off. I do have an RS232 ELM scan unit which I have used on the car with some success but my laptop is now W10 so I have to see what I can do regarding software. Not easy to find something that reads Australian Ford codes properly and still works an RS232 unit! Nearest software I had before was for a Mustang which threw some spurious codes but was helpful.
After a bit of help from Mr U.Tube I have had a go at making a smoke machine. A smoke test seems to be the best way to find leaks as far as I can see. Only problem is making smoke and using it is not quite as easy as suggested. Not sure how safe the ideas are either but I now have a basic smoke chamber. Currently it leaks quite a lot of smoke but very little comes out the tube! More work required.
Just picked up my daughter in the car and had a bit of a play around with the steering AC lights etc as David suggested loading the engine in different ways. It seems to be adjusting for load ok. Then it hit me! Is the tick over really slow or am I thinking it is low because it vibrates. So about 750rpm with AC on in N, about 730rpm no AC in N, Moving steering trys to say about 720rpm with load but moves about a fair bit as you would expect. No vibration no mater what I do in N. Stationary in D about 650rpm with vibration and about the same rpm in R vibrating a lot less. So today it vibrates in D but nowhere near as much in R. Then it hit me Engine mount! What an idiot I have replaced just about every other rubber on the car so I bet it's an engine mount! Decided to order a set and see what that does first.
Thanks for your help gentlemen I will let's you know what happens with new mounts.
Nick
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Ford!
Mar 9, 2020 8:21:07 GMT
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Post by 1800heap on Mar 9, 2020 8:21:07 GMT
Yep new driver side engine mount got rid of 90% of the vibration. Now you do not notice the lower tick over in drive. I expect the tick over has always been like that! The passenger side mount is way harder to replace so I haven't done it yet so there is very slight vibration still but no noise.
As I made the smoke generator I decided to give it a try. Found a couple of leaks on the air filter side of the throttle body but none on the more important side.
Very happy to finally get rig of the vibration.
Nick
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Ford!
Mar 9, 2020 11:19:57 GMT
Post by dave1800 on Mar 9, 2020 11:19:57 GMT
Good news! Cars are becoming so complex it's easy to overlook the basics and dive straight in. Some cars even go into limp home mode when they detect a problem with an engine mounting. The crabs could do this without electronics when the large mounting sheared!
How's the crab journey across the Indian Ocean going, do you get regular location updates?
David
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Ford!
Mar 9, 2020 21:34:03 GMT
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Post by 1800heap on Mar 9, 2020 21:34:03 GMT
Good news! Cars are becoming so complex it's easy to overlook the basics and dive straight in. Some cars even go into limp home mode when they detect a problem with an engine mounting. The crabs could do this without electronics when the large mounting sheared! How's the crab journey across the Indian Ocean going, do you get regular location updates? David They sure are becoming very complicated! It's good to have a win and not need a laptop to do it! My crab is sitting at the Brisbane port waiting for Customs and Quarantine clearance. I'm told about a week David. Nick
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