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Post by 1800heap on Feb 19, 2017 0:21:56 GMT
Hi
Its good to see there is still a lot of interest in the 1800's.
I will give everybody a bit of background before I ask my question, as a newbie to this forum.
I have owned a UK MK3 for more than 30 years and learned to drive in my dads MK2 sitting on his Knees so you could say I like the car. I was very impressed to meet Bill Price at a car show many years ago and get his signature in his book!! He must have though I was Mad!! I moved to Australia some time ago and my car stayed with Mum and Dad with a view to shipping it down under when I settled in. I also own an Australia MK2 non runner at the moment. Well this is the year (exactly 20 years since the import papers were applied for) the import is going to happen, I hope. The ultimatum from Dad has renewed my interest in the old car!! I have a couple of issues including asbestos removal before it can enter Australia and the engine number is missing due to corrosion.
So to the good old engine number question. I have researched BMC engine numbering a little, which I have to say is interesting as you know!!
I would like if possible to get some idea of some real MK3 engine numbers from you guys to see exactly how they fit with the info.
Actually MK2 numbers would probably help too. Of course if the good old DVLA had the full number listed on the V5 it wouldn't be a problem!!
I have also inquired at the British Motor Heritage Museum, but for my year Austin they only have chassis number and year of manufacture they tell me.
Anyone who has any info concerning engine numbering from a parts list that includes MK3's would be great. There seems to be many
of you here with a vast amount of knowledge and your help would be appreciated. Incidentally it is about 95 pounds for a new plate delivered
if anyone needs one!
I am only interested in the prefixes not the actual engine number (Privacy) the year of the vehicle and options like PAS, Auto, 1800S or High/Low compression.
I am thinking at this stage looking at the MK2 numbering MK3's would be in the range of 301B to 307B or 313F to 317F depending on the options, as these
state number 101 on, but this is only a guess from data that only covers MK2's so I am probably way off the track!!
My Car is a 1973 Austin manual with no PAS originally. I think it is a High compression from memory but would have to check.
Thanks in advance for you help
Nick
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Post by Penguin45 on Feb 19, 2017 1:20:01 GMT
Hi Nick, welcome aboard. This question came up quite recently with one of our US members and we were able to make a reasonable stab at an engine number for him. The principal information is contained in the Documents section of the Technical Articles and Support forum - HERE. You need to be in section 1 of the listings. Aaron's thread is HERE. I look forward to hearing how this develops.  Chris. |
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 20, 2017 2:42:03 GMT
Hi Chris
Thanks for the links. There is even more of an array of choices than I could possibly have imagined!
Mine should be as follows, although i'm not sure how to recognize the types of crankcase ventilation. No air pump fitted though so that rules out positive ventilation I think?
UK model
Originally Single Carb
Alternator neg earth, which I thought was a Lucus 11AC so Bf or Kc
Originally no PAS
Pre engaged Starter (Pf)
Rod change manual gearbox (Te)
Not sure H/L compression yet. Any ideas of the best way to check? Head has "A" on it if that makes any difference?
Not sure if standard ratio gears. Have to look at the box for numbers I think!
That means if I'm right Yd, Bf, Pf, Te the closest I can see is 476
Couldn't find a Yd, Kc, Pf, Te
Keep you posted
Thanks
Nick
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Post by Penguin45 on Feb 21, 2017 0:05:02 GMT
Hi Nick.
I think you're going to hsve to make s few assumptions. Unless the car is ex-UK Forces, it will be high compression by 1973. Highly unlikely that you'll have other than standard gear ratios. Emissions - PCV set up is most likely (flat topped mushroom at the back of the rocker cover), or a hose feeding back to the base of the carburettor are the most likely set ups. UK cars neve used a recirculating air pump.
Chris.
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wolseley1800
Member
Posts: 127
Attribute: The Voice of Doom!
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Post by wolseley1800 on Feb 21, 2017 0:41:37 GMT
Hi Nick. I think you're going to hsve to make s few assumptions. Unless the car is ex-UK Forces, it will be high compression by 1973. Highly unlikely that you'll have other than standard gear ratios. Emissions - PCV set up is most likely (flat topped mushroom at the back of the rocker cover), or a hose feeding back to the base of the carburettor are the most likely set ups. UK cars neve used a recirculating air pump. Chris. Have done a little research on this. It is crucial yo get it right. As you have a single you will need a PCV. There are after market ones available. If you have a non original carb, with a 5/16" pipe into it then no PCV needed. In both cases a vented oil filler cap is essential unless you have a non standard rocker cover with a 90° tube. Found this for the MGB as mine has twin cards but gives a good insight. MGB PCV |
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Post by dave1800 on Feb 21, 2017 1:04:14 GMT
The later Mk111 crabs (I had 2) did away with the PCV and had a modified tappet cover and oil trap with a hose that fed into the carb as Wolseley 1800 describes. This change was made earlier on MGBs in the UK. The HS6 carb here in front of me (ex Volvo) does not have the 5/16" tube but the carb body is clearly designed for this to be drilled 1/4" ID so it opens just behind the butterfly (not engine side).
David
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 22, 2017 8:46:00 GMT
Not sure what happened to my previous post so apologies if it appears and I am repeating myself now.
Thanks guys you have jogged my memory.
I went to the Beaulieu auto jumble one year and managed to get a long centre branch S exhaust. I wanted to make it twin carb so this was a major find for me. I didn’t get an inlet manifold though. So in the absence of the proper inlet manifold I made my own (No EBay or Internet).
Basically it was made out of a single carb cast manifold. I cut it up so I ended up with a couple of little stubby sections. I then welded a plate to them to allow the carbs to be bolted on to the head individually. No balance pipe between them, just a port on one for the brake servo connection. Very dodgy linkages, as I remember, but surprisingly it worked ok. I have to admit so does tipping petrol on the air filter, obviously with slightly let emission control!!
Now this is this thought that may help me. I remember the original carb had a port on it that I had to block off. This would suggesting carb crankcase ventilation wouldn’t it? I don’t remember a port on the rocker box cover though. I’m not sure where the pipe went from the carb vent, I can’t remember.
The other carb was from dads scrapped MK11. I don’t think it had the port from memory. That must be why the PCV valve is very familiar. It would have been on the MK11 engine from dad’s car.
So the Poor old car was being run without crankcase ventilation or any kind of carb balance or proper mixture control!! I was sure it was better at the time though!! Of course it would have made more power with the single carb, silly me!!
When I finally got hold of a proper inlet manifold I did the needles and springs at the same time, because I realised the mixture was a bit dodgy and fitted proper linkages.
Still to this day no crankcase ventilation though!! Ops!! This I shall have to rectify.
Thanks for the warning Wolseley1800. In my defence I was young and dumb and on a quest for more power!! Oh well you live and learn!
I have my doubts about it being 476 now as looking through the Micro Fiche at the change points for engine numbers, 476 never had a very high number change point. 668 was the highest I could see, although I didn’t go through the whole lot. I need 10000 + engines of that type to be in the range.
I have another quick question. The UK wouldn’t be classed as a cold climate would it? I have lived in Queensland for 20 years so from my point of view the UK is cold !!
Keep looking I think. Thanks for the info so far guys.
Nick
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wolseley1800
Member
Posts: 127
Attribute: The Voice of Doom!
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Post by wolseley1800 on Feb 22, 2017 12:57:01 GMT
Think UK is classified as normal/ average as extremes of weather tend not to last long. As for your carbs, with the twins - no PCV valve just the carbs connected to the forward crankcase vent using a Y piece to connect them  You can just see the circular oil separator canister attached to the crank vent panel. This is integral. There is another design, later models, that has the separator on the cover. You will need either of these |
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 27, 2017 10:40:58 GMT
Thanks for the Carb vent picture Wolseley1800. Here is a list that I have put together to help me fathom out what I should do. It may be helpful to someone else with the same problem. It is taken from the information given in the microfiche and the parts book I have. Please let me know if there are any errors or omissions and I will change it. 18H_Engine_Reference V2.pdf (257.3 KB) As far as I can make out there were a lot of options, most of which show very low engine numbers for any change points. I have to assume they were special orders. The bulk of engines made, it would appear, come in 6 main choices. That is if you have an engine number over 10000 like me. For a car with an alternator, this goes down to 4 choices as far as I can tell. I don't think my car had temperature control, "AA after the 2nd prefix" although I am not sure exactly what that was on the 1800 engine. That means my engine could only be 651E as far as I can see. All options fit I think. This seems to go against the MK3 being mostly High Compression though. The Fiche only lists change points up to L16127 for 651E, no high comp "H" engine changes that I can see. If anyone knows otherwise please let me know. This I think is where I have settled, unless of course the car turns out to be High compression. Then I give up!! I would really like to get some info on the engines that are out there and still alive. Anyone know if LOCA has any such info? Nick |
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Post by dave1800 on Feb 27, 2017 11:57:34 GMT
Hi Nick I owned 2 Mk111 Crabs. My understanding is that while the military cars had low compression engines the rest of the UK cars on general sale had the HC 9:0:1 engine with the single valve springs and single timing chain. The only other mechanical changes I can recall from the Mk11 to the Mk111 were the rod change replaced the cables, the PCV was removed and the crankcase vented to an additional tube on the carburettor feeding into the constant depression area, the carb needle was changed to a bias style, the pressure reducing valve was moved from the inner wing to the rear underbody and was a simpler design and the dynamo was replaced with an alternator and the positive ground was changed to negative . The suspension was the same as the later Mk11 cars (positive castor) although Tony Wood has mentioned a revised tie rod bracket, I have not seen this. Other changes were made to the trim which was cheapened and the steering wheel boss was changed. I believe the temperature control refers to a thermostatically controlled air inlet flap on a modified ait filter housing that was on my 1975 car but not the 1973 model. I would question whether it is a LC engine unless it came from the military. A compression check should give you a good idea. Australian crabs had different carb needles and I think a slightly lower CR. Like a lot of other data from BMC/BL manuals I wouldn't believe all you read. They didn't even get the outline drawings in my MK11 and Mk111 w/s manuals right they still show them as MK1 ! regards David Thanks for the Carb vent picture Wolseley1800. Here is a list that I have put together to help me fathom out what I should do. It may be helpful to someone else with the same problem. It is taken from the information given in the microfiche and the parts book I have. Please let me know if there are any errors or omissions and I will change it. View AttachmentAs far as I can make out there were a lot of options, most of which show very low engine numbers for any change points. I have to assume they were special orders. The bulk of engines made, it would appear, come in 6 main choices. That is if you have an engine number over 10000 like me. For a car with an alternator, this goes down to 4 choices as far as I can tell. I don't think my car had temperature control, "AA after the 2nd prefix" although I am not sure exactly what that was on the 1800 engine. That means my engine could only be 651E as far as I can see. All options fit I think. This seems to go against the MK3 being mostly High Compression though. The Fiche only lists change points up to L16127 for 651E, no high comp "H" engine changes that I can see. If anyone knows otherwise please let me know. This I think is where I have settled, unless of course the car turns out to be High compression. Then I give up!! I would really like to get some info on the engines that are out there and still alive. Anyone know if LOCA has any such info? Nick |
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 27, 2017 13:11:03 GMT
Hi David
I did see a bit of dodgy stuff in the fiche so I agree it can't be trusted. It is only a stab in the dark really anyway! I don't think its a military engine. It would appear that the higher numbers are a better bet though to me. I dont know how many engines were made all up, but it seems to me there should be only a couple of numbers to choose from, on what was really a standard car. Hence the interest in real numbers from Mk3 engines. They would be lazy and use one number for most I bet. The standard car is the one I am looking for really 10000+ made. Are you saying not 651E or just ignore the LC, as appart from that 651E it looks like a good choice to me?
Ta Nick
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Post by Penguin45 on Feb 27, 2017 14:41:55 GMT
Brilliant effort with the data sheets, Nick. I have converted them to picture files if you would like them putting up?
Here are some details from a couple of MkII engines I happen to have lying about the place, hem, hem.
18H 305B-H 5***
So - 1798cc, transverse. Mechanical petrol pump, C40 dynamo, power steering pump and reservoir, cable gear shift. B is positive crank case ventilation (PCV valve). H is high compression, then the unit number.
All features present and correct on this 1970 car.
18H 301B-H 2***
1798cc, transverse. Mechanical fuel pump, C40 dynamo, cable gear shift. B is the PCV valve, H for high compression and the unit number.
All features correct, although the fuel pump, whilst present, had been by-passed by an electric one. The mechanical one has now been completely removed and a blanking plate fitted. 1970 car.
HTH,
Chris.
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Post by dave1800 on Feb 28, 2017 0:46:34 GMT
I think it would be a good idea to ask for any readers here who have a Mk111 car (not military) without power steering to confirm their prefix numbers. LOCA had a register of VIN numbers but I can't recall if they recorded engine number - the database is down at present and I'm not sure if it will be published again? I am in the same position as you as to whether 651E is the right code for your car. I think that the compression is so fundamental to the engine code, most of the other code options are ancillary components, that you would do better to get some real life Mk111 codes from members. Tony Wood may be able to help, and I would recommend you join LOCI as you may find some Oz parts differ especially brakes. regards David Are you saying not 651E or just ignore the LC, as appart from that 651E it looks like a good choice to me? Ta Nick |
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Post by 1800heap on Feb 28, 2017 8:03:38 GMT
Thanks for the Info Chris I will add it in.
Hold off on the pictures for the moment, I will make a couple of amendments first. Can you tell me what your engines were Austin, Morris or Wolseley? Just to confirm the 301B engine has no PAS pump. The book has a change point in the Pas pump section that lists the 301B and a couple of others, that don't have the Sb noted (Yellow on the sheet). I thought this was odd, although the change was at H32766 so well after your engine. The Auto boxed were all good except one odd one not listed as Rc!!
Sorry haven't worked out putting quotes in yet. I'm sure its easy just need to have a play!
David
I think you are quite right about the importance of HC/LC. I will get Dad to do a compression test for me. Not sure how it will go because the car isn't far off showing me 00000 on the Speedo for the second time!! 190000 miles ish from memory. I will let you know what he gets.
Sorry I made a Typo in the post saying about LOCA having any information. I meant to say LOCI. Loosing the engine number is not a problem with Australian Crabs as the number is stamped into the block.
I am already a member of LOCI. Good Idea, I will inquire if they have any info and talk to Tony Wood thanks David.
If anyone else can help with there engine details please feel free to post them and I will compile the info in my list and post the updated one. Particularly interested in the MK3 Engine but any others would be Great.
Thanks
Nick
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Post by dave1800 on Feb 28, 2017 13:00:17 GMT
It may be inconclusive at that mileage! regards David I will get Dad to do a compression test for me. Not sure how it will go because the car isn't far off showing me 00000 on the Speedo for the second time!! 190000 miles ish from memory. I will let you know what he gets. Nick |
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