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Pointless
Nov 27, 2023 18:56:47 GMT
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Post by jeff on Nov 27, 2023 18:56:47 GMT
Hello boys and girls, Having seemingly overcome my recent servo dilemmas, my attention is now drawn to reliability of the ignition system. Last summer I replaced the coil with a new Remax high performance unit, replaced points with Lucas old stock ones, low tension cotton distributor wires, and after several attempts replaced the condenser with a reliable one along with a known good but very old rotor arm.
The car is running fine but due to the known unreliability of condensers these days, I'm considering a pointless conversion. I've seen a few alternatives for sale and like the idea of the type which uses a magnetic hall sender etc, which fits inside the dizzy.
So a couple of questions. 1/ has anyone converted to this type of pointless system?
2/ will the rev counter which I fitted still work ?
Jeff
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Post by Penguin45 on Nov 27, 2023 19:50:48 GMT
*Looks in cupboard in order to find hobby horse. Ah yes, here it is.* There is basically nothing wrong with the standard points system that quality components will not maintain. The only guaranteed quality component supplier I know of is the DISTRIBUTOR DOCTOR, who is very highly regarded. I have had three of the little red Hall Effect sensors some years ago and every single one failed. I suspect that the heat got them, despite the heat sink grease liberally applied. I really don't like them, principally because you have to carry a spare distributor in case of failure (or a spare unit). There are quality options out there - the 123 distributor is a nice piece of kit, Lumenition, both optical and magnetic, work well and have a sound reputation. Downside is expense. Or you can be a complete loony like me and use your points to drive a nice 1970's electronic ignition unit. It's switchable between electronic and standard if the electronics give up. I'll get home. The modern iteration is by Gammatronix at around £35. I've got a positive earth one going spare which is available after I did the alternator conversion. Anyway, I'm sure David will be able to give you some rather more reasoned and rational ideas. My dealings with ignition have cause much hilarity over the years, so I will make no apologies for my rather biased stance. Chris.
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Pointless
Nov 27, 2023 20:38:02 GMT
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Post by jeff on Nov 27, 2023 20:38:02 GMT
Well thanks for the backie on your hobby horse Chris 🤣 "Point" taken (no pun intended) re reliability of the conventional set up. Its seems the days of nipping down the local shop for those lucas bits and pieces which would last 50,000 miles are long gone. In fact I'm sure the existing rotor arm was one I pulled out of my first landcrab in 1977 on a pre- Cornwall holiday service. The current car NPK,was fitted with silicon ht leads and led me a right merry dance with an intermittent misfire. Tony sent me a set of Norwegian copper leads, possibly made from 15mm water piping and really work well.Unfortunately, they have the old type hard plastic plug caps and are a garish bright purple colour. Apparently, the sparkright units needs silicon leads.
Hmmmm,perhaps things are best left as they are.
Jeff
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Post by dave1800 on Nov 28, 2023 2:29:50 GMT
I will always take the bait as Chris knows so here goes! The bottom line is there is nothing wrong with the original points system other than it requires maintenance at every oil change. As Chris noted you do need to use quality components as there is a lot of rubbish out there especially rotor arms, condensors and ignition coils. The big advantage of the original system is that it is reliable. It does have some limitations but realistically only if you want to drive with the engine running at 6,000 rpm as the points may bounce and cause misfiring or if the engine is highly modified. As far as condensors go, the Distributor Doctor versions appear reliable but I think all should be considered as a consumable item whereas the original ones often lasted the life time of the car. My personal choice when I drove high mileages for work was to use a system similar to the Boyer Bransden ignition that retained the points but used a transistor switching unit. This had the advantage of limiting the points current to a non-inductive 0.1 Amps so they did not require much maintenance and if it failed it was only a matter of swapping 1 wire at the side of the road or adding a remote change over switch. There are many users of hall-effect units mounted inside the distributor such as Pertronic, Accuspark, Powerspark working for years without any problems. However, there are also quite a number of reports of them failing. If they do fail, then this makes roadside repairs more complicated and potentially dangerous with today's traffic. There are several reasons for the failures: Manufacturers of these units try to maximise their profits and automobile quality semiconductors can cost several times more in small quantities than their standard alternatives. Automobile semiconductors are typically rated as suitable up to 125C or 150C or higher compared to standard versions as low as 70C. This may lead to premature failure if they are tempted to use the much cheaper options. Manufactuerers' specs for suitable coils and ignition leads must always be followed, so you would need to check whether the primary resistance of the Remax coil is appropriate. It is essential that all the energy from the ignition coil is dissipated only in the plug spark gap. If an ignition lead goes open circuit or high resistance some of this energy will be dissipated in the internal structure of the output transistor across a junction few microns thick. While there is some internal protection eventually it will start punching tiny holes in the structures until eventually breakdown occurs. It is therefore essential to ensure the ignition components, leads, plugs, rotor arm, distributor cap are maintained in good order. I would also recommend not opening up the spark plug gaps if you want the system to be reliable as this stresses the components and offers no real benefits for the B (or A series) engines in standard form. If you want to confirm whether there is a spark the ignition lead should be connected to a spare plug with its body grounded and not just left to jump to the block or body. Whichever system you choose, I would always recommend carrying at a minimum a spare ignition coil as they can fail without any warning at any time. Rev counters usually work without modification with the hall-effect sensors mounted inside the distributor unless they are are the very early type from the 1960s that used a current pulse in which case it is a case of "maybe". David *Looks in cupboard in order to find hobby horse. Ah yes, here it is.* There is basically nothing wrong with the standard points system that quality components will not maintain. The only guaranteed quality component supplier I know of is the DISTRIBUTOR DOCTOR, who is very highly regarded. I have had three of the little red Hall Effect sensors some years ago and every single one failed. I suspect that the heat got them, despite the heat sink grease liberally applied. I really don't like them, principally because you have to carry a spare distributor in case of failure (or a spare unit). There are quality options out there - the 123 distributor is a nice piece of kit, Lumenition, both optical and magnetic, work well and have a sound reputation. Downside is expense. Or you can be a complete loony like me and use your points to drive a nice 1970's electronic ignition unit. It's switchable between electronic and standard if the electronics give up. I'll get home. The modern iteration is by Gammatronix at around £35. I've got a positive earth one going spare which is available after I did the alternator conversion. Anyway, I'm sure David will be able to give you some rather more reasoned and rational ideas. My dealings with ignition have cause much hilarity over the years, so I will make no apologies for my rather biased stance. Chris.
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Pointless
Nov 28, 2023 9:47:25 GMT
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Post by jeff on Nov 28, 2023 9:47:25 GMT
David,
Thank you too for your comments and assessments.
On balance, I think I'll stick with the original set up which as you and Chis say, are perfectly reliable if maintained correctly. It's the service replacement parts which are of dubious reliability these days, especially the cheaper Chinese made stuff which can be badged and boxed up to look like an original Lucas item. Even the reliability of modern ignition components on modern cars is often a cause of breakdown. I've lost count of the number of individual coil packs failing and glow plug pressure sensors on VW diesels etc etc. Having said that, the reliability question of condensers (capacitors) isn't a new thing. I can well remember servicing my landcrab back in the 70's. Being a good boy,I did all the right things. Within a couple of weeks, an intermittent misfire developed which got worse eventually backfiring making the car undriveable. I took everything to bits, dizzy, carburettor etc checked all the wiring and found nothing. So I resorted to removing the cylinder head, lapped in the valves, all new gaskets etc, and still it continued to backfire.
I was explaining all this to a work colleague who suggested trying another condenser so I put the old one back in. Problem solved. I was furious when the shop refused a refund. "Sorry son, we don't refund electrical items once they've been fitted. You could have plugged it into the mains as far as we know".
Anyhoo, if it ain't broke don't fix it I reckon. I'll continue to carry my box of ignition spares.
Jeff
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Post by dave1800 on Nov 28, 2023 10:12:46 GMT
I think you have made the right decision. I know some people have resorted to using branded capacitors designed for non automobile purposes but this usually involves mounting them on the outside of the distributor and some form of encapsulation. Even these break down eventually. The same thing happens with some types of mains LED lamps as the foil inside the dropper capacitors is slowly destroyed by internal arcing. Some improvements to engine performance can be achieved by moving to a programmable unit such as the 123 Tune ignition but these are certainly not cheap and will mainly benefit tuned engines with hotter cams.
David
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